Black Belt Banter: Martial Arts Business Podcast

#18 | Rotating Curriculum vs. Traditional: Which One Actually Grows Your School?

• Jimmy Hong • Season 1 • Episode 18

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If your classes feel scattered the moment “curriculum time” starts, you’re not alone. We dig into the rotating curriculum—why it ignites class energy, simplifies coaching at scale, and can actually protect belt integrity when designed with care.

With Master Philip Jeung, a second‑generation martial artist and Fordham MBA, we get tactical about growth. Rotation makes it possible for one instructor to guide 20–30 students, pause the room for a 30‑second correction, and lift everyone’s technique at once. Parents see crisp, unified movement instead of four micro-classes colliding, which boosts conversions and confidence. Master Philip shares the staircase schedule that lowers attendance friction—morning, afternoon, evening options—driving consistency and lowering attrition. Most importantly, we explore transition design: seeding the next belt’s mechanics into today’s drills so students don’t stall between ranks.

If you’re aiming to scale from 150 to 300 students, protect quality during testing, and build a black belt core that anchors retention, this conversation offers a clear path forward and the pitfalls to avoid. Subscribe, share with a school owner who needs this, and leave a review with your take: would you switch to a rotating curriculum now?

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SPEAKER_00:

In this week's episode, the topic is one that gets a lot of attention and sometimes debate among school owners: the rotating curriculum. Is it the key to keeping students engaged in classes consistent, or does it make it harder to build depth and mastery? Welcome to Black Belt Panther, the best podcast to help your martial art school increase profits and generate substantial revenue. I'm Jimmy Hong. Joining us today is Master Philip Chung, a second generation martial artist, sixth and cookie on Black Belt, an MBA graduate from Fordham Gabelli School of Business. As a single school owner and lifelong martial art enthusiast, Master Jung brings both practical experience and a sharp business perspective to how schools can structure their curriculum for long-term growth and success. We'll talk about the benefits, the drawbacks, and what it really takes to make the rotating curriculum work inside your martial arts program. Let's jump right into it. Welcome, Master Cheng. Majority of our audience, I'm sure, knows already the concept or what the rotating curriculum is. But can you just explain real quickly what is rotating curriculum?

SPEAKER_02:

Sir, first of all, thank you for having me on the show, Master Jimmy Hong. What a great podcast that you have here. I have listened to all the podcasts that you have pulled out. Great guests, great content. Thank you. And also, what a great event we had this year. I think by far this was the best Asa summit uh that I have been part of. Um it's just a wonderful to be here and it's an honor to be on the show. Thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_00:

It's it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure having you here, Master Chung. I've been we've discussed many times. I wanted you on, wanted you on. I know you're very busy, and and you're in northeast location. Is that correct, Master?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, sir, yes, sir. I'm in New York, so I'm about an hour north of the city. So we're in the suburbs, suburbs of New York, sir.

SPEAKER_00:

How often do you go down to the city?

SPEAKER_02:

So my sister still lives there uh with her fiance. So I go down maybe I would say once a month at least. Once a month I'm down there visiting, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Quite often.

SPEAKER_02:

It's the best city in the world.

SPEAKER_00:

We live exactly uh every New Yorker says that. I I live exactly an hour south of LA in Orange County, Irvine. I do not I do not go to Irvine, LA at all. I used to. Used to when I was your age. Oh wow, but not anymore.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't I don't. It's just too hectic and too much and too much energy.

SPEAKER_02:

You know what? I I have to say though, I get a lot of inspiration about how to aesthetically decorate the interior of the Dojong, or if something that I want to put on the wall, something creative, I go down to the city and I walk down Soho. If I want to get really creative, then I go to Brooklyn. And I gain so much from just walking and browsing shops and seeing because New York City has the newest trend. It's always something new is going on, right? So that's why I actually grab a lot of my inspiration from everything.

SPEAKER_00:

No, that's that's a very unique perspective because I don't when I go to LA, I'm my whole thought process like, oh, when do I leave? When do I leave? It's because to me, I mean, and I when I talk to my friends who lives in LA, they're like, oh, we hate going down to Orange County. So it's just a matter of perspective. But no, that's that's very interesting how you get inspired. So when you go back, I mean, and my you're very fortunate to have such a major city right by you because then you get inspired, inspiration, and then you go back and apply it to your to your day day to day. And anytime you need to get away from your daily routine, it's only an hour drive south. You're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, a lot of it, my father, he doesn't like going down to the city, but I love it because I that's where I gain my inspiration. And that's where also we sometimes come to a disagreement in things like rotating curriculum. My father's a traditionalist. For those of you that do not know, I grew up as second generation under my father. He was my main teacher. And the linear approach of curriculum was how we have always done it. Right. Rotating curriculum was something completely new. For those of you that don't not too familiar with the rotating curriculum, the main idea behind rotating curriculum is that everyone in a specific class is working on the same content or same curriculum towards a certain set testing date. So you could have a white belt, yellow belt, and orange belt in the same class working on one curriculum. And with that curriculum, they would test on their upcoming testing. So that's the basic gist of the rotating curriculum. The linear approach, which does work, I have seen very successful schools still working the linear approach, and there are some advantages to the linear approach and also disadvantages. In my opinion, the linear approach, it's a little bit more easier to understand for the parents. So when I explain to the parents, hey, your child is gonna work at this white belt at his pace or her pace and work our way up to yellow. And once they graduate and promote from yellow, they're gonna go to green and so on. So it's for the parent, it's very easy to understand.

SPEAKER_00:

And for students Speaking, I'm sorry, speaking of I'm sorry, interrupting. Speaking of parents, though, when you switch from traditional to rotating, did you have any pushback from the parents? Oh yeah. You know, did they have any objections?

SPEAKER_02:

It's I think the transition from the linear model to the rotating model can be painful if not done right. And that's one of the disadvantages of going to the rotating curriculum. But in the long run, I think it will it will be great. But in that short period of time, the transition has to be done very smoothly. It has to be thought out. You can't just switch over all in one day. My approach in the switch was I started actually with my black belts. I tried the rotating curriculum now with my black belts, well, my black belt curriculum. Once that has been kind of solidified, and then I worked my bait way back up from the white belts. So I didn't start this rotating curriculum all at once. It was implemented from my black belts first, and then I went all the way back to my white belt, and I started with my white belt. Well, going back to some of the disadvantages of the linear curriculum was that it was very inefficient for me to move between multiple groups during curriculum time. Because class school's great in the beginning. You get them fired up, everyone's warming up, we have some kicking drills, we're kicking targets. And then when it gets curriculum time, everything falls apart. You need extra staff here and there to run the forums. You need to also monitor small groups of young children so they're, you know, they need that supervision. So you are you're going all over the place to run this curriculum in your class. And it's just it just became too chaotic.

SPEAKER_00:

Especially when you have classes full. That's right. Especially when you have an intermediate class, which is from whatever green belt through brown belt, and then and then you gotta teach samjangs, haijang, wujiang, yukchang all throughout at the same time. And when you don't have when you don't have leaders and staff and assistant instructors with instructors able to divide and conquer the belt levels, you're absolutely right that that is a definite drawback to the the linear model. Going back real quick to the parents, what are some of the parents' objective, what they what they brought up when when you converted and switched to the rotating curriculum? No, actually, and how can the current school owners overcome that objective and overcome what what the parents push back and what parents criticism that they brought up?

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

So one of the objectives that was brought up was actually brought up by my father too, was if you have white, yellow, orange, sometimes even green, right? Because usually they have four belts within the cycle, then you're devaluing the hierarchical structure of the belt system. Then why do you have a different color belt in the first place if you're learning the same curriculum? Why not just have a white belt and a white belt with black stripe in the middle, white belt with two black stripes in the middle, and white belt with three black stripes in the middle, right? Why why do you have a green belt in the middle?

SPEAKER_01:

You're learning the I'm excited to learn that answer. It's a great point. So your father is a very smart man.

SPEAKER_02:

So he said, your model was great, but you gotta work out the kinks because at the end of the day, you're gonna have to answer some hard questions. So what I did was first I looked at the bigger picture. Bigger picture was what is the overall experience that I would like my parents, my students, and most importantly, my staff to want to have when they come to the dojong. And when it came testing time, it was so stressful for my staff to be able to get everyone ready for testing, right? We're always juggling so many different things, and then you implement new students coming in. It just threw the whole thing apart, right? So how I did it.

SPEAKER_00:

Wait, are you saying your your staff was stressed with the linear model or the rotating curriculum?

SPEAKER_02:

Which part of the linear model. Stress that the linear model. Because within one class, we'll have four belts, but within four belts, we're teaching four different curriculum, and they're they're all at their individual pace. So some of them are ready to test and some of them are not. And some of them we will have to push to get ready to test, right? So how I approach that model was you know what? The hierarchical hierarchical structure in Taekwondo in all martial art, I think it's very important and it should be valued and it should not be discredited. So what I did was I have white, yellow, orange, and green senior in one class. And then in another beginner class, I have white and yellow in one class. So white and yellow will have their own curriculum where they rotate, and then green and green senior will have their one curriculum where they rotate. So in my school, there are classes where white and yellow come separately. From white and yellow, green, green, senior will come together. But within that togetherness, there's only two curriculums that are running. So there is the structural difference between what the white and yellow is learning and then green, green senior is learning. But at the same time, it's a combination because when it comes to curriculum self-defense and bore breaking, we combine everything. We combine a small part of their curriculum together, but another small part is separated. As they cycle out of the beginner stages, which is white and yellow, and go to green and green senior, right? There is a difference in what they're learning, but only half the section, which is the forms, is very different. But the rest of it, one-step sparring, your board breaking, your kicking techniques, they're all the same. So that's how I still kept a little bit of an integrity between are we gonna separate the higher ranks with the lower ranks and what they're learning.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so the each belt had separate forms, or each belt had all the all the color, all the yellow through green had the same form rotating together.

SPEAKER_02:

Normally in a rotating, traditional rotating curriculum, you'll have white, yellow, green, green, senior, and they'll work on the one form. Yes. Right? And then they'll test all together with that cycle. What I did was I broke off these two like this. I broke them off.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, so they had two different forms.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's a two different forms. It's a split of rotating curriculum. So it's a little bit confusing if you don't see it in action, but uh it works at our school. And I think when you put all the set into mind, you have to say, you know what? Rotating curriculum, I'm gonna try it, it's gonna work. No, it doesn't work that way. I tried it. I just put it in there, I tried it, it didn't work. There are many things that need to gear together to make the rotating curriculum work. First is your class schedule. How are you currently dividing up your rank, size, time layout, etc.? Then it's your current staff. How many current staff do you have in hand at the current moment? And then your pricing and your program structure. How are you how are you integrating your your pricing and program structure into your curriculum? And then most importantly, and this is where I made the mistake, is your fixed environment. A big school, like 10,000 square feet, and a small school, my school is very small, it's 2,500 square feet. We have very due two very different fixed environments. You can't compare the two. And I didn't understand how important this fixed environment came into play until I began to implement some of the changes. Close barriers. Some dojongs have a completely closed system. You can't hear a word from the lobby to the what do you call it, to the mat, right? Some schools have an open system where mat to the floor is just flush, right? All these small things play into pay. But when they all come together, the synergy that it creates, it's unstoppable. It's actually very contagious. The parents would want us to come in and join it. So it's how you really make it work right.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm thinking I I could see how it's smaller versus bigger school owner, but for smaller school owners, single school operators that have, let's say, less than 200 students, this is perfect for them, right? Because they don't have a big staff along with them. They can teach whether they're at the basic program class or they have intermediate level class and they have all different color belts, when they're all doing tega gojong all together at once, and and you're really breaking down and you're able to see and correct the students' techniques as they're doing pumse or once they're scoring, that's when it's really effective because you're ensuring that the students are learning these forms correctly. Whether they learn it now, to take a gojong, and or or four months from now, take a go, what makes what's what's the difference when the ultimate goal is for them to get a black belt? Yes. Right? Yes, sure. So by the time they get a black belt, what by the by the time they get a black belt, the more important thing is for them to learn that Tega Gojang, Teku Yukjong, Teke Chichang correctly. Versus you're you're a one-man show, and then you're kind of overlooking, oh, this kid is doing Tegok Ta Jang and Yukjong and Chichiang, and there you can't, because you can't be three places in the in the school at the same time at once, this kid's technique and tegoke ta jung is a little off, takeock yukjong is a little off, and tegoke, and you can't correct it because you're a one person teaching the class without any any staff supervision. The power of the routine curriculum is you, as the master instructor, is ensuring that each, every one of your students is doing that, that, that pumps it correctly. Because by the time they become a black belt, they're a more complete student, better technique student, and they were taught properly student. Because that's the ultimate goal. Who cares about the journey of when they learned it at year one or year one and a half? Because after three years, that that ultimate goal of a black bellowship, you want them to be a more proficient black belt student.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, that's correct. So I don't know how everyone structures their black belt testing. In the traditional way is that you have to know all your forms, right? But what they when they get to the higher ranks, what happens? They forget all their forms, right? So you have to go back, reteach them everything. We don't run it that way anymore, but rotating killer can help because you're rotating some of the curriculums that you have previously learned in the past. And also what I like to point out is that when everyone is doing the same move at the same time, when it comes to something like forms, it really makes it look good. Because if you really take one student and, okay, Johnny, let's perform and do forms, it's okay. You know, they're they're they're taking it step by step. But when you got 20 people working at the same time, doing the same form, the class energy just it's completely different. And plus, if you're if you have 20 students working in the same form at the same time, if one person makes a mistake, it's easier to spot the mistake, right? So you go over there and you're like, okay, this is what you need to correct, right? And then you move forward. The energy is to me the most important thing in class. With this rotating curriculum, it just has boosted my energy in class so well. And it has implemented the many aspect parts of it where it's so much easier on my staff to manage, because we're talking about class management here, right? So much easier for my staff to get them ready for testing, easier for my students because they're not juggling all over the place. And then parents they really love and enjoy watching their kids because the energy in the class is just contagious.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking optically, right? When the parents come in and they're checking out the class, and then how their kids are doing, and then you see four different bells all doing their own pooms he, all doing during their forms and one sit sparring or breaking, whatever it is, all separate, it looks a little chaotic, right? Versus when they come in and everybody's doing their their forms crisp and looking good, and and that and optically it's very impactful. That that's very true, Master Chung. So like, oh wow, they're the kids look great.

SPEAKER_02:

I trained in different martial arts too. And I was almost always fascinated with this new incoming martial art, Brazilian jiu-jitsu. So when I was in college and post-college, I did train in different arts, judo, jujitsu. When I went to the class to see, oh, what's this fascination about? Why are people gravitating towards a jiu-jitsu? One of the things that I learned right away off the bat was everyone's doing the same thing. You walk into a class, everyone is working on the same thing. So you have one warm-up, one technique of the day, and then you go into what they call sparring, in our term sparring, but you roll, right? So, and the synergy of the class was just it was amazing. I was like, wow, this is something I can definitely bring back. And it was so unique that I that I was very fascinated. And it it just draw my attention a little bit more towards the rotating curriculum because if it can be implemented in a right way for Taekwondo, this can have a huge, great impact on the Matt.

SPEAKER_00:

Was there a specific incident where it triggered you to be like, oh, we got to switch the rotating curriculum, or was it just always in the back of your head, it's like, okay, now we're gonna do it. Was there a point at a time where where it forced you into really thinking about and and and implementing the rotating curriculum, or was it just a gradual process that you knew you had to do? That's a great question, sir. And yes.

SPEAKER_02:

And that time was during testing because I I want my students to feel proud of their testing and their achievement that they that they have trained for and they will receive in return of their promotion. And there was a testing where I'm looking at Johnny perform and I'm like, and where where did I go wrong? Because I gave my best effort to Johnny and the whole class, but his performance, because testing is very important. That's a stage, right? That's a stage to shine in front of his parents, in front of his teachers. We're not setting them up for failure, but I I want him to perform at his very best, and I know he can do so much better. I'm looking at him, he just completely blanked out on the form, or breaking, he missed, and I'm looking at it. Where did I go wrong?

SPEAKER_01:

And they always bring their they bring their grandparents, their aunts and uncles. They're so excited.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, on this particular particular day, there was a there was a lot of people, and it wasn't a a low belt, it was a very intermediate belt. So, where did I go wrong? Um, I'm blaming myself as a teacher. You are not doing your job well. That's when it hit me. I need to come up with a better way because people don't remember what you have taught them. People remember how you made them feel. The feeling of achievement, the sense of achievement is much greater than learning tenga gozang. Learning tenga gojong is a process to reach that feeling, right? It's just a small journey. But that's when I said, you know what? I need to make some changes. I need to make some changes because we've been doing the same thing the same way. And it's really not just stunning our growth of our dojong, but it's stunning the quality of our dojong. And that's when it really hit me. A couple weeks ago, I was just scrolling and I came across something really interesting. This gentleman, Harman Poller, he had, in 1887, he had patented a machine that can make cinder blocks. And he said, you know what, this is going to revolutionize the construction industry, the cinder block. And the only down thing was that it was 90 pounds. It was so heavy to transport up the stairs, move it around. So they complained and they said, you know what, it's greater than all, but it's so heavy. So 17 years later, he patents another machine. But this machine now has two holes. It can create two holes on the cinder block. It brought the cinder block's weight down by 30 pounds. It was better in bearing weight and installation, easier to carry for the workers. I don't, I don't mean we should do less. That's not what I'm talking. I think there is a better way to deliver value. Cut the excess fat out, trim it down, let's squeeze out what we can deliver in value. And that was my thought process, switching over to the rotating curriculum ship. But in return was growth of the school, better testing quality, and less stress on my staff.

SPEAKER_00:

Going back to the implementation, you said you did the black belts first. Right. Just thinking about it, wouldn't the white belts through orange belts be a more easier? Because they don't know the system. They they if you told the white belts, hey, we're doing growth in curriculum, they don't have they're not ingrained of the linear model. So they just think, oh, that's how it always should be. Wouldn't what do you I mean, having you you have gone through the process of of implementing on the black belt club students first? What about other school owners thinking doing it at the beginning level first because they don't know any better? They just think that's the way that's done, would be less resistant. Because the black belt parents, they've been with you for years. If you change something on them, they're like, why are we all all of a sudden doing this way? They would have more questions than the beginners who come up. What do what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, sir. That's a great question. If you like to start from the white belt model, I don't, I'm not saying no, that's okay, go for it. But why I did it with the black belt first was the first approach that I took in my mind was, okay, I'm not changing anything. That wasn't that wasn't in my mindset. Because if I bring up change, psychologically, that just throws everything off. They're like, change, what? What? Change, change. No. With the black belt, my black belts, how I started was, you know what? Black belts, they are my students. They they had been with me for at least three years and plus. White belts, yellow belts, sometimes green belts, they're still learning the process of becoming a student. So they're not really accustomed to our culture yet. So with the black belts, how I approached it was it's not we're changing. We're actually starting to teach for so traditionally, first don black belt, you have one form in Taekwondo, which is core. And you carry that form out until you go to second don. It's too long. So what I did was at the black belt, you're going to learn choreo and gum gong together. So you're learning a second-degree black belt form at first degree level. So when you approach it that way, it's not like you're changing it, you're adding something that's new. But per cycle, we're gonna work on choreo, and in this testing cycle, we're gonna work on Kim Gong. At black belt level, I told them too, when you go to a tournament in sparring, it's not like you go to you can say, you know what, I want to spar against just only first degree black belts. It doesn't work like that. When you go and spar, you're gonna have to sometimes spar against second degrees, first degrees, or even third degrees. It's about the time you spent on the mat and the quality of teaching that you have put in as yourself that matters more. So that was the approach, sir.

SPEAKER_00:

That makes sense. And and the black belt parents are will follow you more because they're they also trust you, they develop years of of trust with you. So they would have but do you recommend okay, so what about okay, what about for school owners who wants to do the whole rotating curriculum all at once? Every belt, every level, every every program that they have, or do you recommend that they block it off by sections black belt club first, then intermediate, then basic? Is it possible for them to do it all at once if they want to?

SPEAKER_02:

I'm sure it's possible. Going back to my original point was that you can't just implement rotating curriculum and not have the lot correct class structure, um, the current staff and your pricing and program structure and the environment that you're in, set that before you just implement it. And I think before you even do all of this, the most important thing is the right way to communicate with your parents and student body and the trust that they have to implement this system of learning that this is going to be a better enhancement, not just for the learning experience of your child, but the overall experience of going through as a through black belt. See, the all these communications, this set stones, if they're all set in a correct time, in a correct way, yes. To to answer your question, yes, sir. But you have to have all your ducks in a row. It's you can't just implement a change because you want to. For me, my feeling of wanting to implement rotating curriculum was was truthfully was very emotional. Because that during that testing when Johnny could not perform, it it really struck a chord. I wanted to walk out. I wanted to walk out of testing. That's how I felt. But before I wanted to make that change, that on Monday, I had to make sure, okay, let me approach it in a way where I can do this the right way, so that if I were to approach, that can have a long-term effect and the betterment of my Tojong and my students.

SPEAKER_00:

What about the rotation length? Do you do it every texting cycle? Is it monthly? Is it every three months, two months? How is the rotation length? How did you set that up, Matthew?

SPEAKER_02:

Our testing cycle is every three months, sir. So we have four color belt testings and then we have three black belt testings.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so having done the linear and then rotating model, do you recommend every school? Is that your recommendation? If you're doing the linear model, if you're doing the traditional model, switch to rotating curriculum as soon as possible, or do you see a linear model in place for school owners in this day and age?

SPEAKER_02:

Let's say you're a single school operator, you have a student calendar. Anywhere from 100 to 200 students, you want to scale to 300. I would say rotating curriculum is a must. It's one of the I would say important tools that are needed for better classroom management. If you are comfortable with the linear approach and that's the way you want to take it, I have seen successful schools that do it. But that would mean that you will have to either hire more staff or open up more classes. If you have a separate belt group for that particular class time, yes, the linear approach can work too. So going back, if it was for me, I would choose to operate with the rotating curriculum. And if it was a single school owner with a space of 1,500 square feet, 2,000 square feet, student body of 100 to 200 students, I want to scale up to 300, yes, definitely implement the rotating curriculum. But you have to implement it in a way where it works for you and not for others. I think that's very important.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a great aspect because even though the linear model code worked for you now, it might prevent scalability as your school grows. By converting into rotating curriculum now, you're kind of setting up that that pathway to scale, to be able to have bigger. Because sure, if you have 10 kids per class and you're there by yourself, yeah, you could divide up five students here, five schools here. But when you have a class, 30 kids, 35 kids, you're not going to be able to do that, right? You're not going to be able to teach different ones as far as when a class is full of 30 kids.

SPEAKER_02:

That's correct.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a great point, Master Jiang, because then because then I'm I'm just thinking in the classroom sense, having 30 kids and there's no way, and then it's a pumsay day, and then testing's coming up in two weeks, and you're there by yourself, there's no way you're going to be able to teach, take a yiang, samjang, sahang, and uh to all the different belt levels in that basic course, in that basic class, beginner's class. So to be able to scale, and if you want to grow, and you're and all of a sudden you're doing marketing and you're you're getting new students in, and your classes become fuller and fuller, and you're adding more more students to your class, you need that rotating curriculum to handle the class size and keep motivating, keep teaching the techniques properly so that they will join your black belt club down the line. Because then they had a great experience in the basic course while you're teaching. But if you're going left and right and up and down, they're less inclined to join the black belt club because they're like, oh my God, there's my kids are not learning properly. There's too many kids in the class. Maybe this isn't the school for me.

SPEAKER_02:

In my class schedule, I have them coming. They have I have a class offering for them. They're coming twice a week. And I have a class for them almost every day. Same thing with the advanced class, brown through double black stripe. They're coming to class together, and I have a class for them every day that can come too. And my class schedule is set.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you have a class for them every day, but they're allowed to come. They're allowed to come twice a week. Correct.

SPEAKER_02:

And the reason being is because nowadays you're competing with a lot of sports. And I wanted the last excuse to be, sir, I can't do Taekwondo because I can't come. I'm doing baseball or other things. So I choose to open six days. I don't have to open six days. When you run your rotating curriculum efficiently, you can open five days and still operate a very successful school because you don't have to open as many classes. I choose to open six because I want to give my students plenty of options to come to class. Making twice a week, it's very easy because it's not even on a set time. Mine is a staircase. So let's say, for example, on my advanced class, I have a Monday evening class. Then Tuesday, it's going to be an afternoon class. Then Wednesday, it's going to be a mid-afternoon class. And then Thursday, it's going to be an early class. And then Friday, it's going to be a late class. And then on Saturday, it's going to be a morning class. So I staircase it in a way so if they can't make one day at that particular time, they should definitely be able to make it in another day in a different time. So this structure has helped me greatly, not just maintaining the quality of our school, but retaining a lot of our students. Our attrition number is very low. I would like to say it's above greatly above the industry average. I'm looking around maybe 2.5. So we have very few students that do drop out. But that being said, it wouldn't have been possible without a set-in-stone plan like this.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, would you say that the rotating curriculum helped your retention rate then?

unknown:

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Is that part of, or has your retention rate always been high?

SPEAKER_02:

Our retention rate has been okay, but the hardest thing with the retention is it's harder to maintain retention as you grow. And if you do that well, then your school grows. I think at certain points, let's say if you have 10 students, you're going to have a great retention rate, right? But as your growth happens at your dojong, you also need to maintain that retention rate. And that's how you grow. And going back to why I started with the black belts, is because if you want to grow your school, it's not the white belts that's going to grow your school. It's not going to be the yellow belts or the green belts. It's going to be your black belts. The white belts and the new belts, they'll always cycle in and out. But the black belts, they'll always be there for you. So I wanted my focus and energy to create a solid black belt program for my black belts. Because these are the people that were going to stick with me for a long term. And that's why I implemented the black belt curriculum first. It was that I wanted to give them the opportunity, hey, look at this. This is the structure that I have. Okay, we're going to carry this structure for your second Don, and for second Don to third Don, third Don to fourth Don to your mastery level. And when my black belt started to grow, my school started to grow. And that's when I realized I was, oh, this is very important to have a set curriculum and implementation for your black belts, because ultimately your black belts will really be the determining factor in how well you maintain the growth of your dojong. I heard once that when you visit many schools, there are only two classes you should look at. First class is their beginner's class. When you look at their beginner's class, you can look at their marketing. How well does this school market? And then the second class you should look at is their black belt class. When you look at their black belt class, you can see how well they have retained their students. That's how school is successful. School is successful because they are great at in marketing aspect part of it, but also they're great at their customer experience and retaining the customers. And they're in this case our students.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely 100% correct, Master Chong. I mean, okay, last question, and then let's wrap this up because I mean I could talk about rotating curriculum. I don't know if you're aware, I had a rotating curriculum in my school as well. So I'm all about rotating curriculum. Once I converted, I was like, oh my God, this thing's the best. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

How did you how did you unlike you though?

SPEAKER_00:

I unlike you, I just shotgunned it. I did the whole thing all at once. Wow. And I had a lot of exactly what you said, a lot of blowback from the parents. They're like, why is my bluebelt 12-year-old son learning Tenguk's hamjongang? He should be learning Tengu Gojong. I'm like, just trust me, just trust me, right? And then after months later, they're like, oh, I understand now why that's this is great, Master Hong. So I could have, if I did it your way, Master Jung, I would have been a little bit more. If if I planned it out a little bit more, if I communicated better, I wouldn't have gotten as many bumps during the during the thing. Quick question for you. Did you end up losing any any students during your transition? Or that's a great question. Or were you okay?

SPEAKER_02:

Not in my memory that we lost students because of switching over to rotating curriculum. I think our staff did a really good job. It's been a while since when we make that switch. So I can't recall, but it if something happened during the switch, I would have remembered. But nothing to the extreme where it sticks to my memory where I say, you know what, this wasn't worth it. But in my in my case, and it seems like in your case as well, the curriculum has helped greatly in implement in going your dojo.

SPEAKER_00:

I I had to, I was forced to because I I had classes that it was just me at that point, at that time, and I had classes at 28, 33 kids. Oh wow. And I could and classes were so full I said I couldn't add them. When when during signups, parents were like, oh, can we come in Tuesday at this time? Oh, sorry, no, this class is full. You have to be on the waiting list for that. But it was just me. I don't know why it was just me. It was just me at some point. And I had to switch the rotating curriculum. So I shotgunned it. I just switched the rotating curriculum. And then I had 30 kids doing all the same in the intermediate class, all the same take rooks hajang, and then they had to do all the same breaking technique and all the same one-step sparring. So I had to do everything. I was forced to do every curriculum based for that testing cycle. If it was an orange ball at that time, then everybody does orange belt. And then after that, they would do the green belt and so forth. So but after I switched, I was like, holy cow. Because you're absolutely right. I wasn't able to scale with the linear model. That's right. I was forced to.

SPEAKER_02:

So where did you have your school, sir? Where was your school located?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, it's Irvine California. Irvine, Irvine, California.

SPEAKER_02:

And then when you were working as a single single school operator working the rotating curriculum, would you ever go back to the linear approach?

SPEAKER_00:

No, no way.

SPEAKER_02:

No way.

SPEAKER_00:

No way. I can't I couldn't go back. The benefits of the rotating curriculum is too great. Too great. Because by the time they were senior belt, red, high red, probationary black belt, black belt, their technique was so much better than the linear model. Linear model, even though you saw kids, several of the kids doing the technique wrong, you weren't able to go stop the class and correct them. But when you have 30 kids in a class and you see three kids doing it wrong, and then you have everybody on your read on their knees, all right, guys, you gotta do it this way because it the technique is now wrong this way, and then everybody sees the correct way and then the right way, you're I mean, you're you're essentially the the technique-wise and uh and the performance-wise, you're fixing everybody all at once. You only have to bring if you're doing four different quadrants of school and then you're you're telling this kid quietly how to how to become better, the three other areas of the school, they don't see that. But when you stop the whole class and you're telling one kid, not badly, but you're like, oh, this is great, this is okay, but if you do it this way, it's gonna be better. And then they do it correct that way. You're putting a spotlight on the kid as the as he improves. Everybody gets to see it, and they get to see beforehand what not to do and then how to fix it, right? Right. And it only takes 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_02:

The linear approach makes a lot of sense if you're coming to class almost every day. Like like how it's in Korea, right? You you go to Korea.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yes, yes. Every day you gotta go.

SPEAKER_02:

You have to go every day, right? And if you take that same model and bring it to students that are coming twice a week at most in the states, it it's hard to compare, right? And and for for those students that are not just Taekwondo, or for those owners that are not just Taekwondo school operators, but karate or different martial arts, this this gives a great uh tool that even different martial arts can use, right? It's not just Taekwondo. Rotating curriculum can be used in many different martial arts. And if implemented well, I I personally think it's one of the best things that was ever created. I wonder who created it. I always I always wonder, I was like, I wonder who started the rotating curriculum. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't have an idea. I have yeah, you we need to find out. Yeah, and we need to have you come back and then and then tell everybody who created it.

SPEAKER_02:

Who created it? Because I want to give credit. I want to give credit to who who started the rotating curriculum.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and I think his name is Mr. Rotation.

SPEAKER_02:

It's secretly uh Master Jimmy Hong. He started the whole thing. He's just he's it's like Bitcoin. I wish he started the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00:

We don't know who started. You're right. What the Bitcoin creator, the Japanese guy. I I I don't I forgot. But you're right. We don't know. Let's find it. I'll find it. I'll find it. Oh, you would you if anybody knows? Anybody watch if anybody watching or listening, please message or email or contact me. Let us know who created the rotating curriculum because I would very much like to know. I'm very curious. And then and then let's, Pastor Chung, why don't we have him on the podcast? Invite him on the podcast and you and I can be great.

SPEAKER_02:

I would love to pick his brain on how this works. Yeah. And one of the other things that I it's very small detail, but it helped me tremendously was in the linear approach, the way we do in order matters a lot. You have in Taekwondo, you have to learn the first form, to learn the second form, to learn the third form, the fourth form, and etc. And we give it a name in Korean, tegag il jang, tegag i jang, tegag samjang, tegaksa jong to differentiate the order of the form. So when I when I when I was in the linear approach, I would always say, okay, the first form, okay, the second form, the third form. But when I switched over to the rotating curriculum, even in the written thing, I don't write first, second, third. I just write the Korean name. Teguk Ilchang. Teguk Ijiang, Teguk Samjang. Because my for my students, they don't know if Ilchang is the first or samjang is the third, right? I just implemented when it really, when you actually do Ilchang, Ilchang is it's a very hard form for beginners. It is. It's a very hard form. It's very hard. It's a very it's a very challenging form. It it's one form where you change direction so many different times, right? Yes. But it what I'm trying to, my point is the name is no longer correlated with order. The name of the form is just the name of the form. And it is implemented basic level or our intermediate level, things like that. So for students that are just coming on, it didn't confuse them. But if I were to put an order in the form, let's say, okay, we're gonna learn the fourth form at Yellow Belt. So the fourth form at Yellow Belt, sir. Why are we learning the fourth form at Yellow Belt? This confuses everyone, right? So just call it that.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a that's a that's a great point. So make sure when you're calling the the form name, call it take a gijang and not take number two, right? Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_02:

Don't call it, don't call it by order, just call it by name.

SPEAKER_01:

Don't call it in English number four, back. Call it call it in a Korean name. Yes, sir. Take a sajang.

SPEAKER_02:

Because nobody's gonna only only the Korean students will know, but but if you tell them if if something like that comes up, but actually, if you perform the form, you know Tegang is not an easy form. It's you're right. And what's also the basic forms. Uh uh what did you teach the basic form, sir? What was your basic form that you taught before you went into Tegajong?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh it was just it was just long stance, down block, middle punch, high block, high punch. Just straight single line with the four steps. Okay, straight single line. Basic form number one or something. So right. All long stance, no, no walking stance or no back stance or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02:

How did the students transition from the basic form to the first form that you taught? Did they all transition well or did they have a hard time?

SPEAKER_00:

I want to say it depends, I guess, on the athletic of the student ability of the student. But what again, when they see the whole class left, wherever they look, left, right, front, and back, they're all doing the same movements, they have no choice to but follow that movement. Right? Correct. So when they're a white belt, and then and then they're all of a sudden they're doing Tekuk's hamjang, whether it's first time or the tenth time, obviously the first time they they don't do it well. They're just they're they're very lost, right? But as you go over and over and over, they get better and better, like anything. But in the beginning, no.

SPEAKER_02:

To answer that question, so why I bring this up is because a lot of people talk about the set belts and how they go from white to yellow, yellow, and then so on. But very few people talk about the transition period. The transition from green belt to blue belt. That period is actually during the transition time, is where I notice there's the most dropout. It's not like so, so what I'm what I'm trying to say is how well does your beginner curriculum transition well into your intermediate curriculum? And that itself is a curriculum within a curriculum because now you're setting your beginner curriculum. So if I want to teach Tega Gijang next to my white belts, how are you preparing your white belts to learn Tega Gijang? When they get to the next belt, learning Tega Gijang is much more smoother transition. But when there's a hiccup in between that transition, no matter how well of a curriculum you have developed, there's a high likely chance that students are gonna drop out.

SPEAKER_00:

But wouldn't isn't that transition the same as learning, let's say you're going yellow belt through orange belt, right? From Tega Gijang to Yijang. There's a transition, a transition period in any level, going from one belt to the other. Wouldn't that be the same?

SPEAKER_02:

But if you go from iljong to eijang and never learn face block, let's say you never learn front, you never learn face block. Oh, right, right, right. Right? Yes, yes, yes, right. In a smaller scale, right? That might be a difficult transition for this person. If you never learn face block and all of a sudden you tell them, okay, do face block in a form. The biggest transition is from the hardest time when they're learning like double life hand block. Take Sha Jang. Tech Xajang is a very difficult form. All the hands are open hand strikes. But before you learn Sha Jang, let's say you the last form that you picked up was Yijang. To go from Yijang to Sajang is a hard jump. So, how you as a teacher transition that within the class structure of your rotating curriculum is ultimately truly the success formula to make all this work. That's where a great deal comes in.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a yeah, no, that's a great point, Master Zhang. Awesome point. Well, let's conclude there. I mean, Master Philip John, thank you for sharing your insight and experience with us today. The rotating curriculum is one of those topics that really challenges how we think about our structure, consistency, and long-term student development. I think you gave everyone a lot to reflect on. To our listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribe to Black Belt Panther on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. Leave us a review or comment. We'd love to hear your thoughts on how you run your curriculum at your school. If you know who created the rotating curriculum, please message us. Please message us. Let us know who it is. We'll research and confirm and validate that. And then hopefully we'll get them on the show. And as always, thank you for being part of the Black Belt Panther community. Keep leading, leading, keep learning, and keep your students training strong. Until next time, have a great one, everybody.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you, sir.